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<p>I was interviewed by Kristoffer Balintona from Brown University about my
participation in the free software and Emacs communities, as well as
general themes related to university education and mountain life.</p>
<p>The publication is <a href="https://browninterviews.org/stand-up-and-tell-people-that-you-cannot-just-be-the-red-carpet-upon-which-others-will-parade-brown-interviews-protesilaos-stavrou/">“Stand up and tell people that you cannot just be
the red carpet upon which others will parade.” — Brown Interviews
Protesilaos
Stavrou</a>.</p>
<p>Quote from the introduction:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Born in Greece in 1988, Protesilaos Stavrou is involved in the
<a href="https://opensource.com/resources/linux">Linux</a> (alternative to
Windows and MacOS; an open-source operating system) and
<a href="https://opensource.com/resources/what-emacs">Emacs</a> (extensible and
versatile text editing software used by programmers, authors,
bloggers, and more) communities. Stavrou is a philosopher; he releases
video essays on
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/c/ProtesilaosStavrou/videos">YouTube</a> and
writings on his <a href="https://protesilaos.com/">blog</a> which blend distant
philosophies related to free and open source software and Unix to law
and politics. Stavrou has a formal education in European politics, law
and economics, intellectually specializing in the European Union’s
Economic and Monetary Union and having previously worked in
politics-related fields including as a parliamentary assistant at the
European Parliament.</p>
<p>In this interview we discuss his experience building a small yet loyal
internet following, the philosophy of thinking for yourself and living
on your own terms, the role of a university education, living in the
mountains, and the facets of his humanity not often revealed online.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Thanks to Kristoffer Balintona for approaching me for a call and then
transcribing the whole thing!</p>
<hr />
<p>P.S. The picture in the interview is from April (I had to borrow a phone
to take it). In other words, the beard is longer now :)</p>
<!-- The following is just a backup in case Brown Interviews ever disappears. -->
<!-- Kristoffer Balintona: Let’s talk about your YouTube channel. Why did you
!-- decide to make one?
!--
!-- Protesilaos Stavrou: I actually wanted to practice my English. I know it
!-- seems odd since my content is not at all related to that, but I used to
!-- live in Brussels, the capital of Belgium. When I came back to Cyprus a
!-- few years ago, all I could speak was Greek. I wasn’t practicing English
!-- nor French at all. So my first motivation to produce YouTube videos was
!-- simply to practice my English. It was mostly me just recording my voice,
!-- I didn’t care about reaching out to a specific audience and didn’t have
!-- a predetermined plan. It was only afterwards that I discovered free
!-- software on Linux as well as Emacs which gave me something more concrete
!-- and a niche to focus on. From there, my channel grew organically.
!--
!-- Unlike other YouTubers, your channel seems unconcerned with growing its
!-- following. Is that accurate?
!--
!-- You’re right, I don’t really care about the channel per se. For me, the
!-- channel itself, whether it grows, whether it makes money, or whether it
!-- becomes popular, is not really of interest. In my opinion, if you put
!-- something like that as your number-one goal, then, whatever you do, you
!-- will instrumentalize that motive in order to pursue that end. If you
!-- have to conform with expectations then you will become the embodiment of
!-- those expectations and you will no longer be yourself. Instead, you will
!-- become someone that conforms with those expectations which will
!-- inevitably dilute what you have to say. Whereas, if you are true to
!-- yourself, you don’t need to do that. It will be sustainable; you can do
!-- it forever.
!--
!-- I think you should put yourself first and then the audience will follow.
!-- Even if there is no audience, what matters is whether you can be
!-- yourself and get the most out of what you are doing. For me that is, at
!-- the end of the day, an intellectual activity that broadens my mind and
!-- satisfies an innate curiosity.
!--
!-- Then what are your goals for the channel, if you have any at all?
!--
!-- I don’t want others to follow my channel or to follow me in particular,
!-- in the sense of tracking the minutiae of my life. I want others to focus
!-- more on the principles I talk about. I see the world under political,
!-- social, and human terms, which is not the case for most of those in the
!-- Linux and Emacs communities. Reality does not consist of each person
!-- living in their own bubble; there are systemic magnitudes and structural
!-- issues. Regardless of the topic, I want it to be useful to others by
!-- speaking in a way that can be applied generally to everyday life. For
!-- me, the only long-term objective for the channel is to keep growing
!-- organically and for it to continue being a place where I post my
!-- thoughts in the way I do now. So as long as I get to do my thing, this
!-- will remain a hobby rather than a job. I don’t see it as something that
!-- has to pay dividends.
!--
!-- What has been the most pleasant lesson you’ve learned from posting
!-- YouTube videos and blogging?
!--
!-- What surprised me the most was that there exists a whole social and
!-- human element to the free and open source software communities. I
!-- receive emails [from those who have seen my videos] practically every
!-- day now where I discuss topics pertaining to technology but also life in
!-- general. I became impressed by the vibrant communities I found that
!-- exist around these tools.
!--
!-- I learned that they are not just tools; they are also what keeps us
!-- together and I am very happy to be part of this community. These
!-- software are developed by a distributed network of volunteers willing to
!-- disseminate knowledge that has been processed or considered thoroughly,
!-- which is incredibly inspiring. When you are in this kind of community,
!-- you really want to put the best version of yourself out there and be
!-- useful to others.
!--
!-- What life lessons did you learn from your university experience?
!--
!-- I studied European politics, law, and economics, which is an
!-- interdisciplinary study. My focus was on European Integration: how the
!-- EU (European Union) has gone from a small coalition of states centered
!-- around a specific set of interests into today’s federal system of sorts.
!-- I’m not interested in politics in the narrow sense of party politics or
!-- in the sense of what person X says about situation A. I am mostly
!-- interested in the bigger picture, which includes not just the political
!-- process — party politics — but also economic implications with social
!-- and cultural dimensions. There is always a broader narrative, something
!-- that we can extract and generalize independent of the specifics of the
!-- case.
!--
!-- Even though I attended university, I came from a working class
!-- background. I didn’t necessarily have the prospects to succeed. Going
!-- into university was actually a luxury for people in my income
!-- distribution. I had to work full time. I didn’t have the university life
!-- of going into campus, going to classes, and then having free time. For
!-- me to attend university and have to study and work full time wasn’t
!-- easy. I was not particularly talented either.
!--
!-- Nevertheless, I actually learned more than what was expected because I
!-- didn’t miss any classes. When we would have homework, the professor
!-- would give us three or four chapters from a book to study, but I would
!-- read the entire book because I wanted to learn. It wasn’t about the
!-- homework itself or the degree; it was about learning the content. Even
!-- over the weekends, I would study if I wasn’t preoccupied with my job.
!--
!-- As someone who provides a comprehensive and free resource for
!-- autodidacts, what role do you think formal schooling plays in education?
!--
!-- The university itself cannot teach you anything. You have to teach
!-- yourself. Of course, it offers you a platform to learn. It offers you
!-- everything that you need access to: libraries, one-on-one meetings with
!-- professionals who are experts in their field, like-minded peers.
!-- However, at the end of the day, they cannot do the work for you. You are
!-- the one who has to read the books, study on your own, and think things
!-- through. It’s about learning for your own betterment.
!--
!-- And, of course, when it comes to making sense of the world, when it’s no
!-- longer about assignments, that broadened horizon really helps you see
!-- the bigger picture. University is its own little bubble where you are
!-- safe if you follow the rules and get good grades. You will learn a lot,
!-- of course, but when it comes to the outside world, the world beyond the
!-- confines of the university, you really need to learn to think for
!-- yourself, not just whatever box you were placed in at school,
!-- university, et cetera.
!--
!-- I am aware that you moved to a remote area in the mountains. What
!-- prompted that decision? Is that related to your belief that we should
!-- always think for ourselves?
!--
!-- Yes. I grew up in a small city in Greece and lived most of my life in
!-- urban areas. I currently live in mountains located in Cyprus, which is
!-- an island in the eastern part of the Mediterranean Sea. I saw this as an
!-- experiment: I thought I would take the risk and see what happens. Going
!-- back is always an option if I change my mind or get bored and is really
!-- the worst case. The reason for this decision was that I wanted a change
!-- of pace. I wanted someplace that would be literally and metaphorically
!-- far away from the urban “EU bubble” that I felt I was in when living in
!-- Brussels.
!--
!-- I didn’t always have this mindset. My mindset used to be: “Let’s focus
!-- on the task that I have to do. Let’s just conform with the rules of the
!-- game. Let’s just do what we are told to do and see how it goes from
!-- there.” The point is that I thought I was happy. I had fun and work to
!-- do — and enjoyed those moments — but I started to feel that I was not
!-- moving at the pace where I felt I was 100% committed to what I was
!-- doing. I was thinking that I wanted to move in a different direction. I
!-- wanted to go one way, but life was taking me another way. My lifestyle
!-- needed to change. At the time, I was feeling this tension, but I
!-- couldn’t specify it. So, I wanted to take a step back and see how things
!-- stand and reassess them by listening to my mind. I wanted to withdraw,
!-- take things in, think things through, and then commit again.
!--
!-- I think I was really asking myself this: “What are your priorities? Do
!-- you want to put your own wellness first or what is best for your
!-- employer first?” For me, I wanted to prioritize my wellness. If I am
!-- well, if I am fine with myself, if I am focused on what I’m doing, then,
!-- of course, I can also perform in my work. On the other hand, if I must
!-- follow someone else’s schedule or lifestyle, there will be friction
!-- which causes me to not feel 100% comfortable. I won’t be 100% committed
!-- to the cause. Thus, I wanted to take control and see whether I can turn
!-- things around.
!--
!-- It may have been drastic, but it was effective. It has helped me a lot
!-- to escape from the fast pace of city life.
!--
!-- Would you say that your Linux and Emacs journey is a manifestation of
!-- those values?
!--
!-- Yes, but I would say that those are epiphenomena, the things that
!-- happened afterwards. What preceded them was this exact change in
!-- mentality. This shift in mindset into a gradually more deliberate
!-- lifestyle, a lifestyle where I control more of the factors that affect
!-- my life. So that was the general principle; to be in control of as many
!-- factors as possible. Of course, I cannot control everything, but to at
!-- least be in charge of whatever I can. This inspired me to search for
!-- alternatives for the software I used to use. And, of course, part of
!-- that process was the discovery of Linux and all the other free software
!-- tools in the free software space, including Emacs.
!--
!-- What have you learned specifically from living in the mountains?
!--
!-- Since coming here, I’ve learned a lot from a new freedom to think and
!-- commit to work without any distractions. For example, every morning I go
!-- hiking for an hour or so. Ten kilometers (6.21 miles) is now a regular
!-- walk for me. I think this basic level of fitness can really help your
!-- intellectual pursuits. For example, I wake up in the morning and have
!-- lots of energy because I am in this regular cycle of good fitness and
!-- diet. This gives me the energy needed for the clarity of mind to pursue
!-- other interests. In Ancient Greece it was said that “A healthy mind
!-- exists within a healthy body.” I also hike for the opportunity to be
!-- alone in the mountains with nature. I get the chance to withdraw from
!-- all the noise, literally and metaphorically, and to freely think about
!-- my projects and clarify my thoughts.
!--
!-- But there is also simply the awesomeness of nature. When I stand on a
!-- mountaintop and I see the various open horizons, mountain ranges,
!-- landscapes, and forests, it really revitalizes me. It’s a special
!-- experience that I never had in an urban setting.
!--
!-- Besides hiking, are there any other hobbies viewers might be surprised
!-- to hear you have?
!--
!-- I used to be a football player, particularly a midfielder. The reason I
!-- didn’t become a professional is because of an injury. Of course, I enjoy
!-- sports in general. I like to exercise: hiking, running, calisthenics.
!-- These are things which I have been doing since I was in my teens. I also
!-- like to learn about herbs that I come across in the area. After a walk
!-- or hike, I come home and search online for the indigenous ferns and read
!-- about their properties and uses.
!--
!-- You’ve mentioned your dog. Does he ever accompany you on your
!-- adventures?
!--
!-- Of course! I really like all animals. I do have a dog (cross-breed
!-- between a German Shepherd Dog and an American Pitbull Terrier) named
!-- Atlas, but I also like cats and all sorts of other animals. I have taken
!-- care of dogs for several years, and I see my dogs as part of the family.
!-- They aren’t just pets. They’re really your friends and can help in all
!-- sorts of ways. They’re also my hiking partners — there’s always a dog by
!-- my side when I go out into the mountains.
!--
!-- Finally, if you had to give your nineteen-year-old self advice, what
!-- would it be?
!--
!-- In life, you should not always try to accommodate other people’s wants.
!-- At some point you should draw a line and say, “Look, I understand your
!-- circumstances, but you also have to take me into your own account and my
!-- own subjectivity, personality, and specific way of operating.” I think
!-- this is especially true for people who are, like me, quiet and don’t
!-- speak much. I know this may sound weird because all my videos are
!-- basically monologues, but I am the silent, introverted type. So for a
!-- person like me, it’s even more difficult to stand up and say, “Hey, you
!-- need to think of me as well.” Stand up and tell people that you cannot
!-- just be the red carpet upon which others will parade.
!--
!-- *This interview has been edited for length and clarity. -->